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    The Miracle Channel Review
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 Thursday, July 29 2010 @ 08:50 PM CST

Victims or Felons?

   
General SubmissionsWhen Faith in God = Faith in an Investment Plan

Now that Gregory Setser (former professing minister and owner of IPIC) has been convicted of 22 counts of fraud, conspiracy and money laundering, he could be facing life in prison.  As for the Canadian connection, the men involved - Wesley Campbell, John and David Devries (father and son) Ralph Bromley and Ernest Reed Graphke - are scheduled for a hearing on June 29, 2006 to set a date for the hearings with the B.C. Securities Exchange Commission. It is an absolute must for everyone to check out the B.C.S.C. website here to find out what these good Christian men have allegedly been up to! This is some serious stuff.         

 http://www.bcsc.bc.ca/enforcement/Docket.asp?txtFileID=171

Says Deborah Bortner (Director of Securities for Washington State and past President of the North American Securities Administrators) regarding affinity fraud, “ I’ve been a securities regulator for 20 years, and I’ve seen more money stolen in the name of God than in any other way.”

There is one thing about the affinity fraud scandal involving IPIC, Amber Investments and New Life Church in Kelowna, B.C. that really gets me. It is the fact that although this is one instance of a crime committed against people within a church who trusted the godly wisdom and discernment of their church leadership, a different form of affinity fraud goes on undetected all the time in organizations like The Miracle Channel and churches led by “prosperity” preachers. The fraud committed by these culprits in the Name of God is not always as apparent as, say, a Ponzi investment scheme that involves a real business plan where there is something “tangible” upon which the investment is based and upon which dividends or returns (usually quite high) are promised. Similarly, in the instance of fraud committed by “seed faith” doctrine, there are many parallels that can be drawn to an investment scam that uses deceit and trickery to get money. While functioning as spiritual institution doing the work of God in the earth, the type of Christian organization or ministry that promotes “health and wealth” doctrine, also functions as investment firm or deposit-taking institution to make believers healthy and wealthy. Using their pastoral titles to convey authority, organization leaders make enticing appeals for donations to do “God’s work”, and take in money from “investors” (the trusting believers), while promising a generous return of various forms from whom they claim to represent (God).  

The difficulty in bringing these impostors to justice is that within their “Christian” organization, there is no official investment firm or business whose sole purpose is wealth building for its clients. When companies such as IPIC and Amber Investments are perceived to be a fraudulent sham, they are investigated and if the investigation reveals convincing evidence, they are then brought to trial. But when Christian ministries such as the Miracle Channel or Storehouse Ministries (Clive Pick) make promises of wealth transfer, divine healing, favor, etc., in exchange for donations (an “investment” into the “kingdom” or the “releasing of a seed”) and the promised return does not transpire, the religious huckster gets the money AND gets off scott-free. The victims are left worse off than before, blaming themselves (because they have been conditioned by these same ministries to believe it’s their fault) for not receiving their promised return from God. Many have been swindled into giving their last dollar out of desperation upon hearing some preacher/apostle/prophet tell them that God will bless to overflowing if they only take a leap of faith and sow their “seed” money! Lives have been devastated. Hope lost and faith in God has been destroyed in many hearts when the great illusion is unveiled.  The enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy, but he doesn’t come looking like the grim reaper. He can make himself fit right in behind a pulpit or in front of a television camera and gain sanctuary inside the church when the watchmen are silenced.

"It is usually difficult to catch perpetrators of affinity fraud scams because victims are embarrassed to admit they were conned and reluctant to turn in “one of their own.” Even when victims realize they have been deceived, rather than notifying the authorities, they often keep quiet or try to work things out within the group. Con artists understand and exploit this reluctance to report the fraud. As a result, good people lose their hard-earned savings and sense of trust, the authorities cannot act without the cooperation of victims — and the fraudsters keep the money, while moving on to repeat the scam with other groups in new places. (From the B.C.S.E. website, “Affinity Fraud – Fraud Among Friends”)

If it is hard enough to catch perps of affinity fraud when investment firms and brokerages are involved, imagine how difficult it is to catch the ones who say that if you give your money to them to do the work of God, God will give back to you all that and then some!

Benny Hinn, the millionaire who achieved his life of luxury by selling the Spirit, was one scammed by Setser. In a cruel twist of irony, Hinn has been quoted saying, “I am outraged that Gregory Setser would use the church for his own benefit.” How’s that for the pot calling the kettle black? Yes, Benny. Imagine! How could anyone who calls themselves a Christian, honestly take someone else’s hard earned money in exchange for a false promise, just so they can live like the ‘legitimately’ rich and famous? Oh the humanity!

It is amazing to me how deluded the Hinn devotees are in that alarm bells don’t go off in their heads when this stuff happens to a man they practically worship. Don’t they question how a guy with a direct connection to the Almighty, 24-7, gets caught up in such a scam? God told him this, God told him that. But God neglected to tell him IPIC is a sham?  Perhaps people do not want to look closely at who they are following for fear that they may uncover the truth and find, as in Shakespeare’s writings, all that glitters is not gold.

It’s not only Hinn. No, no, no. There are more of the big names in Christian superstardom, that we’ve all come to trust to hear and know the voice of God, who were also not able to discern the wolf in sheep’s clothing, while looking for their own gain. There is Reinhardt Bonnke, who by the way, according to SEC analysis managed to personally make $999,134 from his IPIC investments, while his Christ for All Nations ministry recorded a gain of $984,315 before the ship went down. Then there is Kenneth Copeland, Marilyn Hickey and other celebs whose investments went sour. These are the ones who teach that God will bless believers with wealth when they step out in faith and sow “seed” money into good soil. I guess this one backfired on THEM for a change. According to the doctrine they preach to others, the obvious question is, “Why did they go and invest in a worldly business plan to get more wealth?” Why didn’t these faith preachers take their own medicine and just stick to investing in “kingdom ministry” and let God give them the power to acquire more money through that? I think that answer is obvious too.

Moreover, there are some simple, telltale signs that signal to even the most naďve worldly investor when an investment opportunity is bogus. Here’s one: ‘if it’s too good to be true, it probably is’. Yet these supposedly wise Christian guides, imbued with the Holy Spirit, took the luscious bait - hook, line and sinker! Sounds like greed took over their common sense. Maybe these ministers should be praying and asking God for wisdom and contentment, rather than increase!

It seems few people, especially those in high places with the ability to influence many, such as Dick Dewert in Canada, ever question the integrity of these “men and women of God”, rather are always quick to run to their defense. Even though they may be world renowned for their supposed god-given gifts of teaching, prophesy, healing, wisdom, etc., the fact that these esteemed leaders become entangled with such deception and dark motives is never scrutinized; their own lives never examined in light of what Jesus taught.

Maybe the reason our Christian leaders in Canada, like Dewert, flee controversy and don’t want to come down too hard on colleagues in the industry, is because the finger will be pointing right back at them. All the so-called “prophetic” leaders in Canada are a tight-knit group and endorse each other’s “ministry”, publicly flattering each other. They mimic one another like parrots and speak words on God’s behalf, which God did not give them, just as they did in Jeremiah’s day. This company of false prophets are all of the same lying spirit and they know what each other is up to, so they dare not rebuke each other publicly even when a scandal surfaces.  But God will see to it that these false guides do not go unpunished even if worldly authorities do not indict them. Just read what happened to Hananiah the false prophet in this classic confrontation by Jeremiah in Jer 28:15-17 (NIV). “Then the prophet Jeremiah said to Hananiah the prophet, "Listen, Hananiah! The Lord has not sent you, yet you have persuaded this nation to trust in lies. Therefore, this is what the Lord says: 'I am about to remove you from the face of the earth. This very year you are going to die, because you have preached rebellion against the Lord.'" In the seventh month of that same year, Hananiah the prophet died.” I think this is a good indication of how serious it is to speak on behalf of the Lord. The nonchalant, flippant prophets of the day will be in for a rude awakening!

The Miracle Channel loves to take Old Testament Scripture out of context, and interchange “Canada” with “Israel” only where God is speaking of blessings for Israel. Could we not then do the same and just place any one of the Miracle Channel company members such as Len Zoetemen or Pat King in place of Hananiah and also declare that the nation mentioned is “Canada”? For those involved with the Miracle Channel, you can’t pick and choose! It works both ways. Every one of you should have been taught this basic principle of hermeneutics (interpreting scripture); after all, your leader “is” a “Doctor”!

Speaking of Dick Dewert, on an In Sight program a while back, Dick was a guest and the topic was the Miracle Channel’s involvement in the spiritual direction of Canada. One caller phoned in and questioned Dewert on the Wes Campbell/New Life Church/Amber Investment/IPIC scandal. Dewert knew this caller personally as he addressed him on a first name basis in an authoritative and abrupt tone, while referring to an email he received from the caller earlier that week. Dewert also appeared to be insulted and angry that this particular person would confront him during a live phone-in show which was most likely intended to be “singing the praises” and advertising the “great exploits” of the Miracle Channel. It appears Dewert was caught completely off guard. (Click here to view the actual clip from the show) (On a side note, I wonder if Dewert ever did respond to the caller's email. I know he's never appriproately resonded to any of ours!)

The gist of the caller’s question was something to the effect of  “In light of the charges brought against Wesley Campbell and the Miracle Channels close and well-known affiliations with Wes and Stacey Campbell, how will this scandal affect the station’s credibility to provide God’s spiritual direction to Canada?” And, “How is it possible for one who claims to be a prophet in prophetic ministry to be duped by a Ponzi scheme?” Dewert immediately responded in defense of the Campbells, claiming he knew nothing of the allegations until they were recently reported in the news. The caller tried to cut in, but was not given a chance to finish making his point. (So much for the Miracle Channel providing balance and opposing viewpoints.) Dewert went on for a while making some lame excuses for the Campbells, about how they were probably more the victims, how they shouldn’t have been so trusting of this man, how this doesn’t mean they are not prophetic, how even Jesus was duped by Judas, and how Paul said that we only prophecy in part and see in part.

Sorry Dick. Judas didn’t DUPE Jesus! Jesus knew well ahead the identity of His betrayer! It was all part of the plan! And as for you providing an out for the false prophets, Mr. Dewert, if the prophets of today only prophesy in part and only see in part, which part is the part we are supposed to follow?!  If a prophet gives a prophecy that is partially true and partially not true because he can only “see” part of the prophecy, how do we know which part is true and which part is false? By what method is anyone to discern what part of a prophecy is actually of God and which part is the prophet’s imagination? Do we just follow ALL the prophet’s instructions and wait for time to tell what was truth and what was not, and like the people scammed by Wes Campbell and company, just suck it up when the part that was not true yields it’s fruit? The test of a prophet has been and always will be TRUTH! There are no trial runs, no prophecy practice sessions to get it right. Forget “prophetic conferences”! It is a demonic concept that was conceived in hell and distributed by the children whose father is a liar. 

Furthermore, Jesus said, "a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit". We do not see any of the disciples of Jesus in the New Testament getting caught in moneymaking scams, doing unscrupulous endeavors in God’s Name, breaking the law or even just making sure they have a nice little nest egg put aside from the “fruits” of their "ministry". As honorable and praiseworthy in the eyes of man that it may be, Peter did not sell his gift of healing to feed the poor orphaned children somewhere! What we see happening today doesn’t line up with what the book says. Everywhere you turn, the church is involved in scandal when it is supposed to be a beacon of light and truth to the lost! The early followers of Christ were real men and women of God and they “got it”.  They couldn’t be bought for a dollar; they didn’t minister for the dollar. Instead, they purchased the Kingdom with their lives and demonstrated, scandal-free, how to live in this world as a follower of Christ.

Dick Dewert reveals his own heart and motive for ministry by saying things like, “I’m going to make my grandchildren millionaires” (Moose Jaw Victory Church, June 2005). WHEN HIS MOUTH SPEAKS FROM THE ABUNDANCE OF HIS HEART, YOU MUST CONSIDER THIS - His millions of dollars are going to come from either the sincere benevolent kindness of others who respond to the appeal for money OR from the greedy who want to acquire the same wealth by investing into the prosperity gospel of greed! Either way, his money comes from PEOPLE buying into his sales pitch. IT DOES NOT COME FROM GOD! What kind of servant is Dewert anyway, when he intends to have a higher lifestyle than those he claims to serve? Is every Miracle Channel partner a millionaire? No. Nor will they be. This kind of servant’s true motive is to serve HIMSELF! Dewert will acquire his MILLIONS like every other big name “Christian” Super Star with a tax-exempt “ministry” has - from the slick salesmanship of a different gospel!  Woe to the self-serving shepherds!

FRAUD: 1 a : DECEIT, TRICKERY; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : TRICK
2 a : a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : IMPOSTOR; also : one who defrauds : CHEAT b : one that is not what it seems or is represented to be.

DEFRAUD: to deprive of something by deception or fraud
synonym see
CHEAT  (Merriam-Webster)

Fraud is fraud whether it is committed through an investment brokerage, Ponzi scheme or by the man of God in church or on television who makes a false promise on behalf of God. Fraud in the Name of God is committed every day in the televangelism industry (business). But what is stolen from many has a value far greater than money or any earthly thing. Just spend some time with the victims of these charlatan televangelists and you will know what I mean.

The Love Of Money

"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, {4} he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions {5} and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. {6} But godliness with contentment is great gain. {7} For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. {8} But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. {9} People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. {10} For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

                                                                                                    -  1 Timothy 6:3-10 NIV

The final question to ask is this: "If any leader, claiming to be continually hearing from and speaking on behalf of God, not only becomes involved in a "Ponzi scheme" but uses their position of authority to assists in perpetrating it, are they really a victim or are they felon?" They can't be both in the Kingdom of God!

With today being the day when the B.C. Securities Commission sets the date for Wesley Campbell's hearing, the answer is apparently forthcoming. It's just a shame that the world has to make that decision on behalf of the church.

 

 

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Victims or Felons? | 15 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Victims or Felons?
Authored by: Nathan on Monday, July 03 2006 @ 01:10 AM CST

 In our Father there is no deceit.

Victims or Felons?
Authored by: trishad on Monday, July 10 2006 @ 05:34 PM CST
Knowing the persons involved in the Amber situation,  I know that they too were duped by Mr  Setser.  So before the persons writing such scathing stories keep writing them, they need to find out more about the whole situation.  They do not have all the facts and are only going by what the media has reported.  Shame on you!!! Find out all the facts before spewing the stuff that you are spewing.
Victims or Felons?
Authored by: tim on Monday, July 10 2006 @ 06:03 PM CST

It's funny... We have received numerous emails in defense of those named in this article. Many claiming, like yourself, that they know the people involved, they were duped and our information is not factual. The funny thing is, nobody is giving us the facts they claim to have, which would apparently clarify or dismiss any misconceptions.

I have an idea... if anyone has any information that is "factual" that we have not provided, why not post it here to clear the air instead of just providing opinions.

On that note, whether or not you believe these individuals are guilty as charged, I would like to make a greater point that everyone seems to be missing here. It's not whether or not the world finds these people guilty. Rather, have these people committed a greater crime which they have not been charged with as of yet?

These people abused their position of power and influence in the name of Christianity and the end result is that many were defrauded of large sums of money. In my opinion, because this was all done in the name of God, this makes them guilty of a much greater crime than what they are charged with.

It grieves me when there is so much sin in the church and people refuse to say or do anything because of the potential backlash they might face. Has Christianity become that spineless that we will not even face sin in our own house? I say we should hold these people to account for what they have done, whether they are victims or perpetrators, they clearly abused their power and injured many. They should be seeking repentance, not defense. We should not be praying against the persecutions they face but rather that they be conformed to the image of Christ through them.

How about we all stop lying to ourselves. WAKE UP! Everything is not alright. There's sin in the camp. Instead of trying to cover it up or defend it, let's deal with it!!

I will probably comment more on this whole issue later, but for now, I had to get this off my chest.

 

Victims or Felons?
Authored by: Nathan on Monday, July 10 2006 @ 08:50 PM CST

I understand why this kind of thing makes you angry Tim. I have made a concerted effort to get the facts right in this case myself. I have emailed New Life Church, whose email address I used did not work. I also emailed the MC. Gordon Klassen has responded to a few of my emails in the past, but he did not respond regarding this whole ponzi thing. I read all the internet articles I could find. I have not talked to anyone first hand who has been involved.

We do know that a widespread deception has occured in the name of God. As far as I can tell it is unknown whether Wes Campbell knew Amber was built on a ponzi scheme or not. Of course everyone claims he did not. The problem lies in the fact that they are: 1)promoting worldly gain in the name of Christ 2)claiming their ministry is "prophetic" which means they believe they have direct knowledge from God - the evidence is very obvious that God has given them no such knowledge. Some of you seriously need to wake up and quit hiding from that very point,"YOU WILL KNOW A TREE BY ITS FRUIT." Imagine if Wes Campbell had told the real Gospel, "Deny yourself and take up your cross" or "sell all your possessions and give to the poor"? I ask you, would such fruit occur if the Biblical Gospel had been preached? Anybody can be scammed, but those who promote fraud and say it is endorsed by our Father are treading on extremely dangerous ground.

I pray this whole thing will shake anybody, with any kind of integrity to true repentence. Quit making excuses and call a lie for a lie.

Victims or Felons?
Authored by: The Last Spike on Tuesday, May 22 2007 @ 11:49 AM CST
This posting is a little late, to be sure, but hey I've been busy tormenting Latter-Day Saints on another site!

As we all now know, Wes Campbell was convicted, along with the others, of fraudulent activity.  Now what do his supporters have to say about his prophetic discernment?  Can we expect an apology to come from Dick regarding his lack of prophetic discernment in exposing followers of the MC and DGC to this man's deceit?  I doubt it!

Victims or Felons?
Authored by: trishad on Tuesday, July 11 2006 @ 12:28 PM CST

Firstly there was nothing prophesized about the Amber idea.  It was an idea thought up to help the world's orphans and widows.  There was not supposed to be any gain for the persons giving to this cause.  People were told that it was an investment and as such could be risky and not to give money that they needed.  People were also told that they needed to "give a certain percentage of what they made to the widows and orphans". 

The heart behind the Amber idea was good.  Judge if you like.  There was no intent to defraud or scam the congregation.  There may have been a lack of due diligence and perhaps wisdom in the whole thing, but it was supposed to be a plan to help others.

The problem was that Greg Setser had an elaborate Hollywood type office set up so that those checking out the idea of working with him saw a business that seemed to be profitable and working at importing from 3rd world countries.  They did not realize that they too were being scamed. 

 

Victims or Felons?
Authored by: yakach on Tuesday, July 11 2006 @ 04:40 PM CST

Even though you say that nothing was prophesized about "the Amber Idea", it was promoted by those who claim to work in the gifts of prophecy, therefore, people automatically trust what is presented to them.  You will find that anytime someone who holds a position of trusted authority (ie. pastor, prophets etc.) supports an idea or promotes it, alot of people who look to that authority as such will blindly follow.  Unfortunately many Christians do not look into things for themselves because it may be easier to follow along with those you feel are being led by God or they are to lazy.  But we cannot continue to do so, we will each INDIVIDUALLY be accountable.  If we follow someone down the wrong path we will still be responsible.  However, there is still a responsibility of the church leaders to be certain what they are promoting is of God because the Bible does say that there will be judgement on those who lead others astray.

Christians must have discernment (this is not "judging").  You say there was no intent to defraud or scam the congregation and this may be true, however unless you are the person (Campbell, Devries, Bromley) then you really have no idea what their intent was.  Each of them may have had a very different intent.  I cannot discern your intent and you cannot discern mine. Only God knows. 

I guess former Pastor Greg Setser's Hollywood office should be a clue to us that not all is as it may seem even in "Christian" circles.  And that is what is truly sad. 

Victims or Felons?
Authored by: Nathan on Tuesday, July 11 2006 @ 11:09 PM CST

So to understand clearly Trishad, were they not promoting it as an investment rather than as charity? Are you saying that there was no potential for gain? It seems to make the whole thing even more wicked if it was done to supposedly help the poor.

Was there an official prophetic word given about Amber Trishad? Was it not said to be something sanctioned by God? I hope we do get the details straight, and if I have spoken too quickly I would like to know that.

Victims or Felons?
Authored by: tim on Wednesday, July 12 2006 @ 10:36 AM CST

Trishad, are you saying that because Campbell and crew didn't use the words "Thus says the Lord" when speaking to others about this scam, that negates their responsibility for discernment and concern for those they shepherd?

Secondly, you say there was not supposed to be any gain for those giving to the cause, yet they were to give a percentage of their gain to the widows and orphans. This makes no sense. Was there a gain or wasn't there? If so, were people supposed to give it all or just a percentage?

Have you ever heard of a game called "Follow the leader"? Here's how it goes... The leader earns the trust of the individuals they lead. The leader demonstrates that it's ok to do something based on the fact that they themselves are doing it. Then everyone follows the leader by doing the same, trusting of course that their leader is very discerning and has their best interests and safety in mind. Is that not exactly what happened here?

If you do your homework, you will also find that many well-known leaders, including Hinn, Bonnke, Hickey and the list goes on, all touted this as being "from God". Though Campbell and crew may not have stated that (which I find hard to believe), the fact is that the big-time players did and I will guarantee that the big-timers were named in the sales pitch.

The heart behind the Amber idea, on the surface, may have appeared to be good, but this world is full of good intentions. You may want to read Matthew 25 to find out just how far "good intentions" get you in the Kingdom of God.

This whole scam was based on carnal reasoning and pulling on the heart-strings of others. If people were told the money was going to line the pockets of some drug lord, do you think they would invest? Of course not, but when it appears to be going to a good cause, we all want to do our part in helping out.

The problem had nothing to do with Setser having an elaborate setup. The problem was purely and simply "greed" on the part of those who "bought in" to this scheme.

If I could make one recommendation, that would be to do your homework on the entire scheme and those involved. This includes how and where it started, who was involved before it came to Canada and who actually profited from this venture. I think the names will provide a wake-up call for you. The intersting thing is that the major proponents are "spirit filled" evangelicals who also believe in and propagate the "prosperity gospel" doctrine. You have to ask yourself, how many orthodox believers were ripped off by this scam. Why were there so few? Is it because they hear a different message and see a different example?

 

Victims or Felons?
Authored by: The Last Spike on Friday, July 14 2006 @ 04:36 PM CST
The way I see it, if Wes and Stacy Campbell had even a glimmer of prophetic annointing amongst them the flock they shepherded would not have suffered thus.  Yet, blinded by the silver and Gold the (self-proclaimed) prophets could not discern through their own greed and lust for greatness. 

Balls in your court Trish.  Are you gonna' dribble or shoot?

Cheers,
               The Last Spike

Victims or Felons?
Authored by: Nathan on Saturday, July 15 2006 @ 11:46 AM CST

At least Trishad has attempted to make a reply for those at New Life. The best thing that can happen is that you humble yourself enough to admitt that you are wrong or that you just don't know. I'd appreciate it if more people like Trishad would vocalize their disagreement with something they read. These issues are not delt with unless we have open discussion and a common search for the truth. We all must have the integrity to admitt it if we see we are wrong. Don't do that unless you really believe it though.

You need to understand Trishad that we are not just trying to pounce without mercy on anyone who stumbles. Rather, many of us have seen the damage that is done when churches/leaders promote man-centred ideas in God's name. There are many instances where people are taken advantage of and hurt because they believe those who tell them to give in order for God to increase his blessing on them. I challenge you to look honestly at the scriptures Trishad, and ask God to clear you of your own ideas so that their will be room in you for the knowledge that comes from him alone. Seek God and not to prove yourself right.

Victims or Felons?
Authored by: processthis on Saturday, August 12 2006 @ 09:37 PM CST

Greetings to all,
 
I have been following this discussion a bit late, however agree with those who say that we can't know what drives people unless it is revealed to us directly, either because we have a genuine relationship of trust with them, or because the Holy Spirit reveals it to us directly. There are many things we got to go through in order to discern clearly. Therefore, I think it is wise not to extrapolate in this situation, using the "maybes" and "perhaps" as truth, and further using these "truths" in a personal war against heresies. Each case is unique and we ourselves need to hold our own flesh under severe scrutiny and avoid arrogance and blanket declarations that only fuel the fires of weak reasonings.
 
As a newcomer, I want to share that it actually weakens my interest in views expressed and discredits the poster's comment, when people go on rambling madly about. I love processing things, and I believe that as long as we do seek truth we should not forsake grace, and must remember how we ourselves live our own lives.
 
What I hope we're trying to do is contribute insights and share perceptions, so that as a collective body we may gain better understanding on a growing number of strange doctrines and beliefs that are coming out of the mainstream prophetic movement. It certainly is with that in mind that I joined and will share these comments. 
 

If we are to understand prophetic gifting as being the ability fo hear God and speak His heart, then every believer has the gift of being prophetic. To however equate prophetic gifting with the ability to see with the eyes of our spirit as with X-Rays vision, and to then blame people for not using this vision in daily affairs of life, is to misunderstand how God operates.
 
My intervention here is to try and bring some perspective. First off, I would suggest it is a mistake to call Wesley a prophetic person in the "mainstream" sense we usually use. Stacey is the one who displays that type of revelatory gifting. Wesley has an eye for the prophetic however, and has always had a way of surrounding himself with prophetic people locally and abroad, often meeting with them to know what they were hearing the Lord say. He has great respect for the gift.
 
Wesley is an evangelist who has a gifting/aptitudes in business. I believe he truly has a desire to do good on a large scale but like anyone in business, his methods may challenge regular folks' understanding of where to draw the line. Wesley is an icebreaker. He breaks down barriers, pushes his way through obstacles and gets to his goal. That's all I'll say on this. His friend Ralph Bromley is also a hard-nosed businessman seeking results for the kingdom, heading Hope For The Nations.
 
I can believe that both had good intentions with the results of their investments. Business people operate by different rules, and that's why many end-up in court, yet still pushing the envelope and unable to see the wrong they do. Something keeps them from seeing like we do, I don't understand it but I know it's there. We've seen so many convicted yet still denying they had done anything "wrong." Conscience seems to be something many wrestle with in business, as in "lack of." Or as in "differently wired."
 
To desire one's ministry to be successful and even personally profitable is something anyone can understand. But how far should one go? The issue of the Ponzu scheme certainly raises questions that don't deal with success in ministy, but rather with issues of greed and using a leader's position to recruit people and funds.
 
We can assume many things in this case, however I am looking forward to see what will come out of the court hearings before jumping up and down in defense of or in accusation. What could be edifying here would be for us to make sure we know what we're measuring, and with what. In the crowds of onlookers, hearts are revealed too, and that is a point of contact for us connect with God's Holy Spirit to allow Him to work in us what we'd advocate He works in others.  
 
One last thing: prosperity preaching is not a new thing, and as someone who attends Dominion Gateway (since we moved here 2 months ago), I don't think the majority of people really see it as being "Prosperity Gospel." Knowing a few people there, I perceive that many are genuinely holding on to the promises of God for their lives, desiring to walk in newness of life and experiencing the reality of God in daily living. Victory over sin and former lifestyles often provide encouragement to explore further how rich and accessible is the new life in Christ, through the lenses of God's promises. This sometimes make us run on a thin green line as we wrestle with the polarized issues of prosperity and contentment. It certainly reveals deeper issues of character, not just theological rectitude through experience.
 
There is however abuse, and it usually would come from leaders who, from the pulpit, would put emphasis on giving money in the offering, inviting people to attach to this the promise of God's rewarding sacrificial giving. It grieves me to be in a conference and having someone on stage take 15 to 20 minutes to expand on giving, session after session, while saying they are trusting God to cover all the conference's expenses. I feel that a line has been crossed when this happens. And I have seen it happen too often prophetic-themed conferences.
 
This leaves me wondering if they are wondering too, and why isn't their boldness becoming a bother to them. Do they watch the DVDs of their own conferences and observe themselves pleading? It may offer them some healthier boundaries.
 
In a spirit of processing, and seeking edification, and hoping this is not too dispersed as a first comment posting...
 
Regards and blessings,
 
Andre
Lethbridge, AB
 
Victims or Felons?
Authored by: Nathan on Friday, August 25 2006 @ 12:15 AM CST
You say Wesley is an icebreaker who pushes through obstacles to get to his goal. That is probably true. That is what I dislike about the so called "prophetic" movement today - pushing for a goal that is usually financially oriented. Can you see Jesus doing that? That is not the Jesus I see in scripture. 
Victims or Felons?
Authored by: processthis on Friday, September 01 2006 @ 11:16 PM CST

Hi Nathan,

Anyone would agree that we need to beware of anyone who uses the pulpit for personal gain. I personally have come up with the term "mainstream prophetic" to describe the prophetic pop-culture that is heavily relying on itself to create "ministries", inbreding small itinerant preachers and dispensers of anointing. It is sickening for sure.

I give the benefit of the doubt to those who hunger after "more" of God, however, they are usually mislead when it means being prayed for to get more anointing, pray for visions and miracles, etc. Everything beside Christ. Strange silence from these pulpits about dying to self and to eprsonal ambitions, even if they are "prophetic". Is there a bent toward grandiosity that's plaguing the mainstream prophetic movement?

When they will come to serve churches without bringing their book tables, maybe their credibility will rise... we sure need true fathers and mothers in the faith.

 

 

Victims or Felons?
Authored by: Nathan on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 12:45 AM CST

processthis,

I appreciate your desire for balance regarding these issues. I must confess my own tendency to hypersensity whenever I hear someone focusing on material things rather than the Gospel. I am glad that you percieve this inclination in the "mainstream prophetic movement" as you say. We want to be a people who have something real to give to others that is not dependent on the things of this world- but it seems that many, especially in the charismatic circles want it the other way around. You cannot put a price on the satisfaction of the innermost being. It is worth losing your life for. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control are worth far more than this shallow "blab it- grab it" witchcraft . It is to our loss that we often fail to see the true riches that are in Christ. That is the heart of the mystery - Jesus Christ living in you. (that I hope is the perfection we are seeking)

-Nathan 

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